Posts Tagged 'Pentecostal'



Denominations & Ordination: A Crock of Baloney?

Priest Collars 1Tony Jones has been shocking the ministerial and denominational blogosphere this week by suggesting that our contemporary denominational ordination systems are sinful and obstruct the flow of the Spirit’s activity in our time.

His entire series on this is worth reading:

Let’s Ordain Adam

Reconsider Ordination. Now.

Reconsider Ordination. Now. (Continued)

My (Anti-) Ordination Sermon

Ordination: Housekeeping

Is There Ordination in the Didache?

I have some thoughts on this as you might imagine. Here’s a lightly-edited version of what I commented on Tony’s blog during the series…

Thanks for having the guts to have this conversation, Tony. As I think you know, for the past decade I’ve been part of a stream of house churches where we emphatically believe (and on our better days practice) ‘the priesthood of every believer.’ This means that we all have the dignity, worth, responsibility and empowerment to be ministers of reconciliation, demonstrating God’s shalom here on terra firma. It also means, practically speaking, that we’re all expected to share in our gatherings, at least occasionally and hopefully more. Not like a bacchanalian Pentecostal service gone awry (though that can be fun too), but like preparing something or being open to share – you know, a psalm, hymn, a spiritual song; or perhaps a teaching, prophecy, or exhortation. : )

That said, for the past two or three years, I’ve been increasingly influenced by mainline and Catholic spirituality – liturgy, mystical theology, and commitments to justice in particular. And, like these churches would be quick to tell you, you can’t just cherry-pick the ‘spirituality’ and theology you like from them while discounting the ecclesiology it’s been shaped by and comes wrapped in. So, I haven’t. Though I remain opposed to an ordained caste of Christians that stands over and above the mere ‘laity’ (yep, I’m also an egalitarian when it comes to gender issues and I think the mutual-subordination model of the Trinity articulated by the Cappadocian mothers & fathers, and by the author of The Shack, makes good sense), I respect the coherence & elegance of the liturgy and the priesthood that’s evolved to support it.

Here’s where an ’emergence’ orientation has personally helped me, Tony: A decade ago, I would have had to keep on embracing house churching and slam mainline & Catholic spirituality; alternately, I could have ‘converted’ to (say) the Episcopal Church and recanted my house church ‘heresy.’ Now, I can transcend & include. I can embrace a both/and perspective on this.

My both/and happens to be what you all practice at Solomon’s Porch. I first encountered the idea from a friend of mine (I’ll protect his identity) who’s a progressive catholic type who’s flirted with the idea of being ordained as a priest in the Celtic Catholic Church, an independent Catholic church in the ‘ol apostolic succession. If he pursued this path, he told me, he’d pursue becoming a bishop. Once a bishop, he’d have the official authority to ordain anyone he wished – thus, he’d ordain any baptized Christian who understood the glory and duty of being a priest on earth.

I like this approach. I think that one way mainline churches can infuse new life into them would be take this subversive and experimental approach – perhaps with a few test dioceses at first, since I’m sure it would be scary. But take the Episcopalians for instance, who wish to be the best of Catholics meet Protestants. Why not take the pomp & circumstance (what Bono called the ‘glam rock of the church’) of formal priesthood and make it available even to the plebs? I know institutions rarely undertake prophetic acts, but it seems like a Jesus thing to do. And way sexier than what we dour-faced house churchers do, poo-poohing the whole ordination ‘thang.’ Priest Collars 2

This need not be overly disruptive to the highest ideals of ordination. It could draw from the best of the 2nd-5th century cathecumen process, where becoming baptized happened after much study, prayer, and service, carrying with it great weight and dignity. Make the ordinations gift-specific if need be, and certainly be clear that ordination doesn’t mean you’ll be making a full-time living or drawing a full-time paycheck from this vocation. For an era, I imagine there will still be full-time priests in this setting, but perhaps their role could evolve to being coordinators of church full of priests. After awhile, inspiration or necessity might give birth to an all-volunteer driven church, volunteers who nonetheless are completely serious about their great & glorious vocation.

[After sharing this, there were some other comments. Here’s my response…]

Thank you for your thoughts & experience sharing, Rev. Joey.

“If everyone is “set apart,” for ministry then no one is set apart.”

Well, isn’t church ‘eclessia,’ that is called-out ones? It seems that everyone is set apart for something.

“I don’t think that Tony’s comments point us to “no ordinations.”

Me neither.

“But I also have a hard time reconciling ordaining everyone to be the leader.”

Hmm. I suppose if everyone tried to be the leader at the same time, in the same space, and in the same way, one might have confusion like there was in Corinth circa century one. But if we see a diversity of ways leadership can function and is manifested, I think it makes sense to refer to a church of leaders (which isn’t the same thing as saying a church of pastors or church of elders – though I would also assume that both of these can and perhaps should be plural in a healthy gathering; ie, more than one).

Wow. Let me just say it feels weird discussing church polity like this in an ’emerging’ context. It brings me back to house church vs. conservative Calvinist debates I was having on email listservs 11 years ago! In that spirit, I’ll close with a quotation from Holy Writ:

“You also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.” (I Peter 2:15-16, echoing Exodus 19:6, “You will be my kingdom of priests and my holy nation.’ These are the words you must speak to the Israelites.”)

These texts in their context might not mean everything I want ’em to mean, but they’ve gotta mean something.

[Someone then told Tony that if he’s decrying a corrupt denominational system paying minister, then he needs to stop writing books for a corrupt publishing industry. Naturally, I took great umbrage. 🙂  Here’s my reply…]

The difference between regularly-paid ministry/denominational apparati and Christian publishing is significant: If Tony’s a compelling writer, people will buy his books and in effect choose to be ministered unto by him on a per-book basis. Any monetary compensation he receives from this is per book sold, unless he & the publisher negotiate an advance royalty – which still isn’t the same as a salary with benefits. A paid denominational minister, on the other hand, can and often does coast for years on mediocre material at best, continuing to draw salary and benefits. Even when local congregations oust the so-so minister, they can go from church to church and build a career out of it. I’m not suggesting that most have this outlook; I am suggesting, though, that publishing is way more merit-based than most bureaucratic ministry. Two mediocre books and you’re finished in publishing – if that. Bureaucratic ministry procedures hurt the ‘clergy’ as well as the ‘laity;’ the whoredom of Christian publishing produces Christian best-sellers, which are their own form of calumny. But that’s another conversation…

And I’ll admit, people had some great pushback to my publishing-as-meritocracy comment. The posts are well-worth reading.

Thanks again, Tony, for these provocations!

Not the Religious Type?

What is faith? Can you catch it, like a disease? Can you lose it like your car keys? And what about God, the object of faith? What can our current post-secular environment offer this conversation? In an unusual combination of developmental theory, secular culture and Pentecostal/charismatic spirituality, Not The Religious Type by Dave Schmelzer crafts an intriguing response.

Let’s look at the charismatic dimension. Jim Marion, interpreting Ken Wilber’s “Integral” developmental theory for Judeo-Christian faith, once opined that Pentecostal and charismatic Christians “appear to be mythic-level Christians who are attempting direct contact with the spiritual realm by means of the psychic level. This is a feat if one can pull it off.” (Marion, Putting on the Mind of Christ, pg. 76) In other words, those in the ‘Spirit-filled’ camp (where I have my roots) are doing a juggling act they’re scarcely aware of: Living a very woodenly-interpreted faith by means of intensely exterior ecstatic experiences, with the purported aim of having a very subtle and sublime fellowship with God…

My review for TheOOZE is continued right here; Brittian Bullock and I got to interview Schmelzer, and the podcast-y audio for this is here!

No US Post-Charismatic? Say It Aint’ So! And, Bentley Sadness

So Rob McAlpine pens this (from my early web-readings) thoughtful book, Post-Charismatic, and I’ve been waiting for a couple of years now to read it in book form in the U.S. I thought my friends at David C Cook USA were gonna pick it up, but apparently they’re not. Do me a favor: If you want to see this book in the US of A, go to Robby Mac’s post and comment up a storm, all of you. Then I’m going to go to Cook with that post and show them the demand of folks who’d like to buy a US version. Personally, I think the charismatic movement is hot, with friends and foes alike looking for substantial writing about it. Rob paints a balanced portrait of this stream, giving an accessible history and credible way forward.

Speaking of the volatility of our Spirit-filled brethren, Boston Vineyard pastor Dave Schmelzer provides a balanced take on the Lakeland revival, and Brother Maynard gives us a good (though difficult) account of the it and the Bentley’s marital separation. Let’s pray for the Bentleys, Lakeland Florida, the unity of the Church, and for all God’s people to cultivate a healthy appreciation for the beautifully subversive and transformative nature of both God’s power and God’s ideas (teaching, Scripture, doctrine…however you want to put it).

Revival in an Internet Age – Lakeland Links Roundup

http://jc4jc.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/revival.jpgWhen the Brownsville Florida revival broke out nearly 15 years ago the Internet was barely a glimmer in most people’s eyes. Even then it had some effect on getting the word out about – and critiquing – the happening. Well, lightning has apparently struck twice in Florida – there has been a veritable bit-torrent written about the “Lakeland Outpouring” expressing both unqualified support and what sounds to me like witch-hunting (knocking the guy for getting tattoos? C’mon.) Amid all of this din, I’ve found a handful of pretty insightful pieces on it from across the spectrum. Here they are.

Lakeland, Florida, Barack Obama & Burma: A Call to Respond to The Signs of the Times by Pete Grieg

Rumours of Revival by Billy Kennedy

(Another) Rumours of Revival by David Derbyshire

The Lakeland Outpouring and Todd Bentley By Robert Holmes and Brian Medway in Storm Harvest (Australia)

Leaders Commission Todd Bentley at ‘Lakeland Outpouring’ – from Charisma Magazine

Biblical Reasons To Receive God’s Glory and Give It Away in Power Evangelism by Dr. Gary S. Greig

Rick Joyner on Lakeland (and Question/Response)

Chuck Pierce and C. Peter Wagner on Lakeland

Leaving Lakeland in TheOoze: Part One, Part Two, and Part Three

Lifting Jesus High! Bringing Biblical Light to Your Questions about the Lakeland Outpouring & Todd Bentley by Todd Bentley – the Man Himself speaks out!

So what do I think? I wouldn’t venture to say unless I go to Lakeland. I’ll be in Florida this next week, but alas: here rather than here. But I’ll continue to pray that God’s good dreams find hands, feet, and ecosystem to manifest, in as much diversity as God so delights in. Until next time, friends…

New Wine Party / Chill & Refill

Meet Todd Post. At the height of my interaction with John Crowder, Post & I had a brief exchange of our own. He’s posted many of the videos of Crowder that are on YouTube, including this original music of his:

So when I saw this video, we started corresponding, and it turned out he was passing through Raleigh on a Greyhound, on his way to (or is it from? I can’t quite recall) Virginia where he was hosting an outdoor “Holy Ghost House Party.” We met and he gave me review copies of his two albums, New Wine Party and Chill & Refill.

They’re fascinating albums – electronica overlaid with sampling from the preaching of this fella, John Scotland, a definite “new wine” enthusiast. I think this is how charismatic preaching should be heard all the time – better to be felt than telt.

As best as I can tell, Todd doesn’t have a “day job;” he is in many ways the embodiment of the ‘Spirit-filled’ ideal. He goes to conferences, then goes out onto the streets, evangelizing, passing out shots of Godka, and taping/podcasting the conversions. He doesn’t have a high-profile ‘ministry’ in this world, but faithfully walks out in (as our Quaker brethren would say) the Light he has been given. I have absolutely no idea how he earns a living – could be the life of faith!

Here’s a little about Todd from his website, Signs & Wonders:

“Born in Fargo, North Dakota and raised in the bordering city of Moorhead, Minnesota, Todd Richard Post attended a traditional Lutheran church where he was confirmed at the age of 15. Two years later at a Young Life meeting, T. R. asked Jesus Christ to come into his heart. But an intense love for secular music caused T. R. to back away from Christianity and move to Minneapolis to pursue a career in the recording industry. During that time he supported himself doing disc jockey work in roller rinks, nightclubs and at wedding dances.

In 1991, T. R. had a powerful experience with the Lord while visiting family members in Fargo. He recommitted his life to Jesus and later accepted the call to preach. T. R. was employed at the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and also served as an evangelism leader at Living Word Christian Center before stepping out to become a full-time missionary. During that time, the Lord led T. R. to start writing “Signs & Wonders”, a newsletter that is now read by Christians all over the world. Crowder & Post

In 2006, T. R. resumed using his recording and DJ skills by launching the

Signs & Wonders Radio Network. The following year, T. R. produced “New Wine Party”, an album combining electronic music with the preaching of Liverpool, England native John Scotland. A follow-up album “Chill & Refill” was released in March 2008. Samples from both albums may be heard on T. R.’s MySpace page.”

So there you have it! Check out his tunes on his Myspace page.

Of course, speaking of off-the-beaten path Spirit-filled tunage, I’m looking forward to my copy of Toking The Ghost… : )

Toking The Ghost

Micah Mayo: In Defense of the Spirit

The ‘Crowder conversation’ continue to invite reflection from many perspectives – including mine, but it shall have to wait (tomorrow, hopefully!). My fellow Raleigh house church communard shares his thoughts ‘In Defense of the Spirit.’ The past year has been a spiritual renaissance for him, Micah says, being exposed to solid biblical scholarship and emerging churches and like-hearted authors…

“I have all of these new, great, and powerful ideas floating around within me, but in this presentation of the Gospel of the Kingdom I can’t help but notice a gaping hole. Where is the Spirit? It isn’t as if these folks don’t believe in the Spirit, or that s/he/it (who knows?) is never mentioned, but it I only seem to find it in passing, or mentioned in such an abstracted context that there seems to be no method of approach or interaction with this very real facet, or hypostatsis of God. I’ve been to a couple of emerging churches and new monastic communities. I’ve enjoyed authentic people who love Jesus and are pursuing his Kingdom. I’ve admired the community, participated in group expressions of our experience(i.e. art projects), fed the hungry, taken communion and heard words of encouragement and good news. But still, I’ve wondered… where is the Spirit?”

>Continue reading ‘In Defense of the Spirit’…

Pentecost and the Way of the Shaman

Still no new post from me…sorry…I’m gearing up to go to DC this weekend, as I’ve been elected to take part in Bread for the World’s Hunger Justice Leaders Training, a great honor…but speaking of Spirit-filled, I was on a panel of judges for Jesus Manifesto’s Pentecost 2008 (in other words the Jewish/Church Feast Day, not the flavor of Christian spirituality, though the lines were intentionally blurred) writing contest, “Stepping Into The Wind.” Enjoy here our first-place winning piece, “Pentecost and the Way of the Shaman.”

Also: Jason Clark, a Vineyard pastor and Emergent Village guy in the UK, has just weighed in with astute thoughts on revival, Todd Bentley and John Crowder.

The sacred drum stays out of sight, behind skins and blankets until the old woman has need to travel. She lives among the reindeer herdsman of Northern Mongolia. Inside her oortz (a type of teepee), the Mongolian Shaman begins to beat her sacred drum, and chant. These are the vehicles of her travel as she enters a spirit realm on behalf of those who seek her help. Sometime during her spirit travels she enters a trance, the spirits enter her body, and the old woman dances like a child.

Read more on Jesus Manifesto.com… »


Check Out This Free Book Club

Tweetlie-Dee

Error: Twitter did not respond. Please wait a few minutes and refresh this page.

Abolish Slavery – Join the Movement Today!

  • Friend of Emergent Village

    My Writings: Varied and Sundry Pieces Online

    Illumination and Darkness: An Anne Rice Feature from Burnside Writer's Collective
    Shadows & Light: An Anne Rice Interview in MP3 format from Relevant Magazine
    God's Ultimate Passion: A Trinity of Frank Viola interview on Next Wave: Part I, Part II, Part III
    Review: Furious Pursuit by Tim King, from The Ooze
    Church Planting Chat from Next-Wave
    Review: Untold Story of the New Testament Church by Frank Viola, from Next-Wave

    a