Guest Blog – John Crowder Speaks!

Controversial Spirit-filled minister John Crowder speaks for himself in this followup to my Charismatic Chaos or (Holy) Spirited Deconstruction? post. Want to read it? Then go here to my new blog home at MikeMorrell.org! Here you’ll be able to keep up with the latest. Please update your bookmarks & RSS feeds accordingly. Thank you!

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54 Responses to “Guest Blog – John Crowder Speaks!”


  1. 1 Jimmy_C May 30, 2008 at 1:45 pm

    Youse responds…

    Mike,

    I like many have seen the YouTube videos. The style is different, but the basic flow is much like what we were seeking as young charismatics in the early eighties. We had this new power tool. We knew it would do something, but were not sure how it worked. The instruction manual only had a few lines and a few photos. We plugged the tool in and went to work. We developed a praxis that was fun and gave something of a high, but I look back now and say we had very little biblical foundation for what we were expressing.

    I do NOT discount that John and Ben and even Todd love Jesus. I would even say that according to the videos John would be a blast around a dinner table in conversation, building the relationship of spiritual family.

    I find myself in the position of Gamaliel in Acts 5. I am not about to say this is NOT God. I will say that with TIME a theology/doctrine should temper the hype. If this is not a sincere move of the HS, it will fade away into the history of the charismatic movement. If it IS God then He will direct the wave to focus on a Risen Jesus.

    I may have grown old and cynical. I WILL own cynical;), but this “seems” like MD 20/20 versus a finally aged Cab or Merlot or Pinot Noir.

  2. 2 andrew May 30, 2008 at 2:44 pm

    john – very well answered. look forward to hear the rest of the message through Mike. You probably have more in common than you think to those in the charismatic-influenced emerging church, esp. overseas where there is a whole lotta shakin goin on.

  3. 3 natrimony May 30, 2008 at 3:25 pm

    Very interesting reading. Thanks for contacting Mr. Crowder. I hope to do so as well.

    Hmmm…Crowder represents himself well. He’s obviously practiced turning a phrase. I might have to check out his book–don’t really want to buy it though. Even so, he uses many of the standard mystical catchphrases (mystics of every flavor–Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, etc. are remarkably similar). “Intellectual discernment is a holdover from modernism.” Maybe so, however, modernism is a holdover from Scholasticism which grew out of the monastic ‘mystical’ environment which Crowder purportedly supports.

    John Crowder describes a methodology for discernment that, “is simply putting the mind and its Greco-rationalistic structures in their place, secondary to heart. What many consider “intellectual” is actually mental insanity (1 Cor. 2:14-15). True sanity only comes through conscious-altering epiphanies with God.”

    On that note, it’s becoming more and more vogue to embrace the Hebraisms of the Bible and to reject the Greek tendency for specificity. There is probably some fancy handle for this trend in criticism but…I am at a loss for it at the moment. Whatever the case, 1 Cor. 2.14 speaks of the unregenerate person, not the brainiac, the scholar, or the type of nit-picking, pursed-mouthed, doctrinaire, know-it-alls which people such as myself are often cast as. 1 Cor. 2.16 also tells us that we have the (νουν–if you’ll permit the use of my Greco-rationalistic training) mind, understanding, discernment, intellect of Christ. Yeah, discernment and intellect are synonyms here. Go figure.

    Consciousness-altering epiphanies with God are not true sanity, they are more like vacations–not merely a state of mind but also of being. They’re a blast when they happen and are always worth reflecting on (I still look at my honeymoon photo album about twice a month) but its kind of nice to be on your own couch, you know, the one you’ve been breaking in for 3 years that has that perfect ass-groove. Well, I guess that some people want to live on vacation (I know that I do sometimes), that’s o.k. I guess…but don’t insist that living at Sandals Jamaica is ordinary.

    A good friend, Keith Gibson went to the trouble of compliling the following list of mystical charismatic cliches. See if you can spot your favorite one, better yet see if you can locate Mr. Crowder’s basic argument. I believe that entire books have been written based out of one or more of the following theses.

    “God can’t be put in a box.” (one of my personal favorites).

    “God is tearing down the religious spirit.”

    “You are stuck in your tradition.”

    Dare to challenge a particular leader or call into question their doctrine and one runs into more loaded language.

    “We are not to judge.”

    “Why are you coming against him?”

    “Love covers but judgment uncovers.”

    “If it is not of God it will fail but if it is of God you can’t stop it.”

    “Look at the fruit.”

    “Touch not my anointed.”

    “Truth is a person, not a doctrine.”

    “Jesus is more important than doctrine.”

    Ask them to evaluate their seeming out of control behavior and you get….

    “God offends the mind to reveal the heart.”

    “God doesn’t want us living from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.”

    Push too hard and the ad hominem attacks begin.

    “You have a jezebel spirit.”

    “You have a religious spirit.”

    “Satan is the accuser of the brethren.”

  4. 4 Briana May 30, 2008 at 3:57 pm

    I am amazed and so incredibly thankful for this discussion. It’s the exact thing I’ve been struggling with. (if I misspell forgive me, I can hardly see the flea sized font)

    ~While I have long acknowledged the existence of postmodernity as a reality of the age, this very intellectual elitism on which you have commented is one of the chief reasons I have been hesitant to dive headlong into the trendy “fad” aspect of the emergent discussion.~

    John’s been hesitant-I’ve been downright scared.

    I left the IC seven years ago, and have slowly processed my new growth, trying to balance on what seems to be a tightrope between two skyscrapers. Having been brought up in the Pentecostal Church and having seen some wild things, I have come to a wall– unwanting to reject my truth to follow fully into the EC, but unable (unwanting) to return. I had lurked on some popular EC message boards and was disillusioned at what seemed to be a sorched earth policy towards the work of some prophetic ministries. (And the saddest part, when viewed from the center, there were some powerful prophecies spoken for the EC/Homechurch. On the other side of the coin, the IC ministries may not have seen who they were speaking to).

    I guess my point is that there is room at Jesus’s table for all, and everyone of us are expressions of a God that is unfathomable in his vast creativity.

    I’m excited to see that others are having the same dilemna and are able to discuss it.

  5. 5 Benjamin Williams May 30, 2008 at 5:47 pm

    Great, I try to leave formula-based Christianity and when I find the Emergent dialog I find out that it is elitism… Now what do I do?

  6. 6 zoecarnate May 30, 2008 at 5:53 pm

    Hey Ben!

    I don’t think the emerging conversation is really elitism, but we all have our moments – know what I mean? Stick around – you might like it!

  7. 7 Rob May 30, 2008 at 5:54 pm

    Skillfully written…
    * * * * *
    John is too spiritual to be bothered with the irrational…er…rational fears of those nasty heresy hunters. After all their fears only confirm that they are of weaker faith than the mystics. Experience trumps intellect, and they don’t have the experience.

    Game over.

    No snobbery there.

    So how does Paul admonish us to deal with those of weaker faith?
    * * * * *
    From my perspective there is no one quite so intolerant as those demanding tolerance.

  8. 8 pat May 30, 2008 at 6:13 pm

    Consciousness-altering epiphanies with God are not true sanity, they are more like vacations–not merely a state of mind but also of being.

    Pat:

    I beg to differ!

    If one is actually having consciousness altering epiphanies with God truly, then it is not like vacation. There are permanent alterations being made in our conscious world.

  9. 9 thegreycoats May 30, 2008 at 6:40 pm

    wow well that was just too cool for me. i wonder what crowder does with folks who have experience and intellect. i guess that would trump any further discussion ?

  10. 10 Layla May 30, 2008 at 6:41 pm

    8Now while he was serving as priest before God when his division was on duty,9according to the custom of the priesthood, he was chosen by lot to enter the temple of the Lord and burn incense.10And the whole multitude of the people were praying outside at the hour of incense.11And there appeared to him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.12And Zechariah was troubled when he saw him, and fear fell upon him.13But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zechariah, for your prayer has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John.14And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth,15for he will be great before the Lord. And he must not drink wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.16And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God,17and he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared.”

    18And Zechariah said to the angel, “How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is advanced in years.” 19And the angel answered him, “I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and I was sent to speak to you and to bring you this good news.20And behold, you will be silent and unable to speak until the day that these things take place, because you did not believe my words, which will be fulfilled in their time.”21And the people were waiting for Zechariah, and they were wondering at his delay in the temple.22And when he came out, he was unable to speak to them, and they realized that he had seen a vision in the temple. And he kept making signs to them and remained mute.23And when his time of service was ended, he went to his home.

    24After these days his wife Elizabeth conceived, and for five months she kept herself hidden, saying,25“Thus the Lord has done for me in the days when he looked on me, to take away my reproach among people.”

    26In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth,27to a virgin betrothed [fn2] to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin’s name was Mary.28And he came to her and said, “Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!” [fn3] 29But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and tried to discern what sort of greeting this might be.30And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.31And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David,33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”

    34And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?” [fn4]

    35And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born [fn5] will be called holy—the Son of God.36And behold, your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son, and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren.37For nothing will be impossible with God.”38And Mary said, “Behold, I am the servant [fn6] of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her. ESV

    Interesting how both Zechariah and Mary asked the same question. Both were in fear of the visitation. I am not sure that one can take these verses and come up with the interpretation and poetry (but she could taste something of Heaven on this experience. Mary was given a much more far-fetched word: you will give birth not merely to a prophet, but to the Son of God Himself! How crazy! Yet somehow, because of her intimate relationship with the Lord, her hunger or her faith – she instinctively discerned that this encounter was legitimate. She did not say “prove it to me.” She said “tell me more.” She said “let it be according to your word.” Her discernment was greater, because she intimately knew God enough to recognize how He felt, tasted and smelled. She had been with Him, not merely read about him. She could smell the cassia and aloes of Heaven on this encounter, and she jumped right in without having to process it. She discerned correctly. Not from her head or her theology. From her belly.) that Mr. Crowder has used since nowhere in the scriptures are we alluded to her relationship with the Lord….

    Where does one get all of this creative, discriptive analogy of Mary’s position in the Lord? All we are told is that SHE was favored by the LORD…

  11. 11 robbymac May 30, 2008 at 6:51 pm

    Good observation, Layla!

    One other observation: “Her discernment was greater, because she intimately knew God enough to recognize how He felt, tasted and smelled.”

    Except that Mary was talking to Gabriel, not God. :)

  12. 12 pat May 30, 2008 at 7:11 pm

    Thanks, Mike. I really enjoyed that………………a blog with dialog. Is that common?

    After what happened to us last weekend, I can really identify with how he feels about rejection. For the first time though I wasn’t bothered a bit by it. In fact I thought of the embarrassment it was to the poor guy. I think we all have a circle of friends among whom we would truly suffer if rejected. For example, this message board. It would hurt to be unsubbed. We might all arrive at a place where we can’t participate, for whatever reason, but it would hurt to be cut off. Does that make sense? If we walk in the Spirit we WILL suffer rejection. The son of the bond woman persecutes the son of the free. Remember that they are our brothers, and trust the only truly trustworthy, LJC!

    <>

    Pat:
    This is a really beautiful description of being born. It is the very thought I had when first hearing the term, *emergent church.* New born. Emerging from the womb. And nothing wrong with being New………….neo or kairos………….. Sarah weaned Isaac and Abraham celebrated the weaning! Isaac’s primary interaction is transferred from mother to father. Life is about progression.

    The only way into the kingdom is through the church. I just had this thought: At each birth two very significant organisms *emerge.* One is the PLACENTA, which is dead at the very moment of separation, and DOA! The other organism is a living PERSON.

    Nobody is born into the kingdom of God without being radically possessed by the Holy Spirit and that doesn’t change. I am radically possessed even when I don’t see it or feel it.

    And I really liked the following words he expressed. I don’t know about all the jargon of *Greco-rationalistic structures.* I too want to be *fully engaged in the experiential interaction,* the reality of God in Christ Jesus.

    I can see better that he understands they are *playing.*

    <>

  13. 13 1ozmom May 30, 2008 at 8:17 pm

    You were absolutely right about labels having their place. Thanks for the thoughtful comment on my blog, and I’m looking very forward to reading your conversations with John.

    One thing I know, is that to deny what I have experienced concerning the workings of the Holy Spirit would be like me denying that one of my children were my own. In the past 7 years my faith has been torn down brick by brick and the one thing that kept me believing in God at all were my experiences with the Holy Spirit. If that can be compressed down to a cliche, then so be it.

  14. 14 Frank May 30, 2008 at 9:16 pm

    Hi Mike and All,

    I’ve been following the post and comments, and just had a quick thought to relate. As a Professional Futurist, and student of change dynamics and strategic thinking, it’s important to me to not only tie together both the “macro” and “micro” of every situation, but also to inhabit the “meta” territory across disciplines/thought/practice as much as is possible – all the while continually learning (which includes both understanding and experience). With this in mind, we can find the “treasure” in other viewpoints and rest assured that we – as individuals – are where we need to be right now. As we reach an apex of growth in one cycle (of life, or thought, or practice), we tend to experience a shift to another growth curve or cycle (or we stagnate, which can have its purpose as well). This can be seen in the biblical promise of a movement from “glory to glory” or “strength to strength,” and resonates with the talk of deconstruction of a previous level in order to access another growth cycle (Similar to the theory of “Creative Destruction.”) In essence, much more than we presently imagine is most likely in the process of deconstruction and reconstruction, and there are whole other epistemes outside of our realm of “realities,” – both for Emergent and Charismatic – that can lead to even more liberating and creative spaces in God. Could it be said that most here agree that “unlearning” is even more powerful than “learning,” and that God is after ongoing transformational development moreso than attaining to a particular level of truth? (In response to a previous comment – with all respect intended – I believe this is what Jay Gary was referring to when he differentiated between “present-past” and “present-future.” Both are useful as the poles of “push” and “pull” in moving toward productivity or relationship, but cannot be defined exclusively by “pomo” ideologies; this concept is meant to motivate toward a mindset of transformational initiatives and lifestyles.)

    Frank

  15. 15 johnohara May 30, 2008 at 10:55 pm

    This is fun, Mike. I already wrote my piece in response to Steve K.’s treatment, never having heard of Mr. Crowder prior to his now-epic post. I’m thankful to you and John for setting a table for conversation – our relationship with the Spirit is vital to partnering with Jesus in the world. What seems to evade this entire conversation, however, is where any of this intersects with missio dei. Acts 2, the pentecostal lynchpin, is bookended by an utterly unexpected, non-marketed divine infusion of earth wind and fire on one side, and the Jesus community learning to master the art of living in the way of God on the other. I do not question the veracity of what’s being experienced in the various youtube videos mentioned; however, I think an important counterweight to the “wild side,” is a living into the way of Jesus (i.e., empowerment). I’m afraid that the chasm separating pentecostal Christians from others has less to do with a disdain for the Holy Spirit, than a valid concern for the way we’ve narrowly framed the benefits in self-centered, experiential narratives. Is there room for rolling up our sleeves and partnering with God in the vineyard amidst all the heavy wine drinking going on? I should state that this is not a charge leveled at Mr. Crowder – apparently he’s heavily involved in the work I’m alluding to. Yet this is likely the reason a straw man has been made out of the messenger.

  16. 16 Frank May 30, 2008 at 11:57 pm

    “I’m afraid that the chasm separating pentecostal Christians from others has less to do with a disdain for the Holy Spirit, than a valid concern for the way we’ve narrowly framed the benefits in self-centered, experiential narratives. Is there room for rolling up our sleeves and partnering with God in the vineyard amidst all the heavy wine drinking going on?”

    Yes – thus, transformational development.

  17. 17 Carrie Albright May 31, 2008 at 1:15 am

    How devistating to find out on my wedding night that my husband just wanted to love me and be loyal to me but wanted NO experience with me – no hug, no kiss, and no lovin.
    LAME!!!!! That is no consolation prize.
    If you could be eating with Jesus at his table, what could ever be more important that would make you leave? I can’t think of anything.

  18. 18 zoecarnate May 31, 2008 at 2:38 am

    Quite true, Carrie. But if – after the meal – Jesus wanted to get up and go do something (as he was wont to do), I wouldn’t want to be stuck at an empty table trying to recreate a feast out of some breadcrumbs, whilst Jesus is in action.

    Now to the best of my understanding, the Crowders’ ministry involves soaking in God’s presence and getting off our @##es–but you’re getting ahead of me, missional commentators! That’ll be discussed in a couple of days. :)

  19. 19 Benjamin Williams May 31, 2008 at 3:08 am

    @Layla
    The Bible suffers from the same fate as email, text messages, and blog comments; there is no tone. We have to add speech inflection and all audio-verbal stuff in our heads. So Mary and Zachariah “words” look the same but they might have used a different “tone” with Gabriel and that was the difference.

  20. 20 Heather May 31, 2008 at 3:09 pm

    John, Mike,

    I’m enjoying the conversation from the edge of my seat!

    I’m particularly thrilled with how John stands in the middle, neither completely identifying with or dismissing either the charismatic or emergent camps. This is where I also dwell.

    I have enjoyed the “intellectual” emergent conversation for what it has captured of the Lord’s mind and heart, and I’ve enthusiastically attended a few choice emergent venues. At the same time, I have long practiced everything from “speaking in tongues” to prophecy and even had a slight taste of the shaking, laughing stuff.

    I admit though that I am somewhat uncomfortable with the extreme practices of the latter of this list of experiences – and while I might be prone to write off phrases such as “tokin’ the Ghost” as creative language that expresses revelry in God’s exceeding greatness as the giver of Joy in comparison to anything a drug could give, I’ve been somewhat startled by my emergent-aligned friends’ offense to such phrases, and taken the time to reflect whether or not I have become too cavalier about such “creative language” in view of God’s greatness…

    So as a hybrid emergent, I embrace the “conversation.” As a charismatic, my eyes (yes, my eyes, not my powers of reason) are peering carefully around the room to discern the flow of the anointing. And here is where I think both camps have something to offer one another – reflective conversation, such as those in Malachi who “feared the Lord and spoke to one another of these things” along with those who are truly willing to get their feet wet and their hands dirty in the realm of spiritual experience, need to offer and receive their gifts from one another.

    So as a hybrid charismatic, I have one question of my brother Crowder and the rest of our company… which would be, what if the discernment in your belly realms is saying, “Nope, this ain’t Me.” Where in the practice of our modern day charismatic schtik do those with the true, spirit-inspired, spirit-led gift of belly discernment get to use that gift for the body so that we let in even MORE of the True Anointing and keep people from being distracted and sidelined into other junk? I’m not talking about anyone’s colorful use of phraseology (such as Crowder’s) and this isn’t an indictment on Lakeland or anything specifically going on – but since the topic of belly discernment has been thrown onto the table – as a “discerner” it has often seemed to me that somehow demonic activity and the Holy Spirit are moving among the same crowd, at the same time, and I yearn to see our corporate experiences cleansed of such mixture and so that we can be even more immersed in the True Fire.

    So if we are going to dismiss “intellectual” discernment in favor of belly discernment, that’s great – but where does the latter get to weigh in on the situation without being relegated to the realm of “that’s just your fears” or some other emotion and not used to keep the bride spotless for Jesus?

    Great conversation, keep it coming :)

  21. 21 Heather May 31, 2008 at 3:17 pm

    Frank,

    I love your passion for partnering with God and changing the world! But first, we probably should consider partnering with each other ~ the emergents have the drive (while their Power-base is somewhat undeveloped), and the charismatics have the Power (while they are often inexperienced in christian community and organizational drive) – I can’t wait to see the marriage of the two!

  22. 22 Bill Samuel May 31, 2008 at 3:59 pm

    This dialogue is indeed interesting. In really listening to each other’s understanding of their experiences with God, we can learn much.

    At their best, emergents draw from the diversity of the Christian experience over two millenia, rather than adopting strains of Christianity hook, line, and sinker, or dismissing them altogether. God speaks to us in many ways – Praise God! – and there may be ways that particularly speak to us as individuals or faith communities (which can change over time), but this does not mean that other ways may be valid or that we should avoid any practice of them.

    Emergents do tend to draw in a lot of cerebral, highly educated folks, and that can lead to a lack of balance, and sometimes some snobbery. We all need to be humble before the Lord.

    I believe the charismatic is an important way in which God speaks to us, and emergents should try not to be afraid of it. But this does not mean more cerebral approaches lack any value.

  23. 23 Pat June 1, 2008 at 12:23 am

    Heather writes:

    I have one question of my brother Crowder and the rest of our company… which would be, what if the discernment in your belly realms is saying, “Nope, this ain’t Me.” Where in the practice of our modern day charismatic schtik do those with the true, spirit-inspired, spirit-led gift of belly discernment get to use that gift for the body so that we let in even MORE of the True Anointing and keep people from being distracted and sidelined into other junk? I’m not talking about anyone’s colorful use of phraseology (such as Crowder’s) and this isn’t an indictment on Lakeland or anything specifically going on – but since the topic of belly discernment has been thrown onto the table – as a “discerner” it has often seemed to me that somehow demonic activity and the Holy Spirit are moving among the same crowd, at the same time, and I yearn to see our corporate experiences cleansed of such mixture and so that we can be even more immersed in the True Fire.

    So if we are going to dismiss “intellectual” discernment in favor of belly discernment, that’s great – but where does the latter get to weigh in on the situation without being relegated to the realm of “that’s just your fears” or some other emotion and not used to keep the bride spotless for Jesus?

    Pat:
    Great question, Heather. We identify with both the message and the messenger and I am continually brought back around to the fact that *discernment* is a result of maturity. It is not just a gift, like I hear some folks say. It is something that we grow into through experience:

    Heb 5:14 But solid food is for them who are mature, even those who by reason of use have their facilities exercised to discern both good and evil.

    It takes a mature person to use a sharp knife and I’ve seen too many children using sharp instruments to bloody other children.

  24. 24 Matybigfro June 1, 2008 at 4:42 pm

    quality dialog going on here i will be tuning in for the ride

    IMHO John is pretty accurate with the charisphobia/Pentecostalism that exists within the emergent lands, I think that we often don’t here derisive tones unless we are the object of the derision. Not that I’m saying that being emergent = being anti-charismatic many emergents are v-generous towards the charismatic movement some there are those that highly value their part in the global body of Christ (hat tip the magnanimous Tallskinnykiwi). Many emergents are or have been card carry charismatics with whom there are varying levels of appreciation for their past lives.

  25. 25 Heather June 2, 2008 at 6:08 am

    Pat,
    Of course, there are two different types of “discernment” mentioned in the NT – “discernment of spirits,” and the type you are talking about, a general discernment of the senses of the mature towards good and evil. The first is a gift, the second is a sign of maturity.

    At any rate, I think my post related more to the first – the gift one. Maybe John’s post was more about the second?

  26. 26 Michael Creel June 2, 2008 at 1:24 pm

    All very encouraging, very positive, conversation.
    Let us keep the flow going.

    In essentials, Unity.
    In non-essentials, Liberty.
    In all things, Charity.

    WE are the church. In all our messy-ness, let us have Grace for one another because none of us have it all together. We know in part and we prophesy in part. I need everyone’s piece of the puzzle.
    (But in all that we do, let us do it with Love.)

    Let the challenge be that we catch one another getting things right.
    Let the challenge be that we pray for each other’s breakthrough.
    For your breakthrough is my breakthrough.

    It has been said
    “God offends the mind to reveal the heart” . . .

    How ’bout:
    “God offends the mind to Free the heart” . . .???
    (so perhaps He can transform our minds???)
    I kind of think maybe God is kinda Holistic . . . He wants all of us with Freed Hearts and Transformed minds.

  27. 27 Frank June 2, 2008 at 4:35 pm

    Heather,

    I agree, and believe that the only way to accomplish any permanent, or better yet “evolving,” transformational change is through collaboration and community. I’m a big fan of networking theory, collaborative idealogy and methodology (as well as theology – is that enough “ology” in one person’s life?), and even conflict theory, which is another form of social change. Personally, I have a different view of how to accomplish (or arrive at) community and collaboration, but I’m hearing ya! (Side note: I do think both can – and should – be accomplished and practiced at the same time.)

  28. 28 cathryn thomas June 2, 2008 at 7:18 pm

    Wow… found myself laughing and weeping- and SHAKING in the Spirit to the point that i almost wore my coffee! John gotta say huge kudos and phat Amen’s. It really is all about the intimacy of the Bridal Chambers of God’s heart. Mike- thanks for doing the foot work and opening this thread of thought.
    John- gotta say.. you might want to contact Steve K… he’s a dear one.. i know he would love to go deeper… he really does have an open heart. I’ve had my angst as well with some of the “head vs. Spirit” issues in the emergent and have posted before on the place where the elite-ismssssss that have plagued both camps…. the “post” whatever which semi-implies a “getting beyond, past or above, where as the charismatic parts have some of it too with the attitude “we have the Holy Spirit more than you guys” thang… that ticks me off to the hilt! So i feel like a “tweener” (not from the age aspect!)- but more like ….. i’m fine with “the conversations” as long as it leads to the passion of God’s heart for His kids and Loving in the Verb sense… as in action. I love how God demonstrates His love for us in signs and wonders…. and in all reality… we ARE a sign and a wonder. If we have been raised from the dead spiritually in Jesus………….. why can’t we see the physical dead be raised… or limbs refashioned and restored. I think God likes Rocks….. Scandalon thang… that likes to trip us to the point were on our faces and at His feet. We might just stumble deeper into His heart!
    Love ya all,
    blessings…
    and keep the thread going- it’s awesome!
    shalom,
    cat

  29. 29 cathryn thomas June 2, 2008 at 8:07 pm

    “Where does one get all of this creative, discriptive analogy of Mary’s position in the Lord? All we are told is that SHE was favored by the LORD…”

    ummmm Layla- i think John pointed out that she didn’t question that it was God… so to me that means she had quite a deep relationship on a heart level…… plus i don’t take her to be one to “sleep around”- so to have an inception encounter with Holy Spirit, to me indicates she is one of God’s intimates. His favor as well as how He reveals His Love and Power is cool like that.

    just a thought.

  30. 30 cathryn thomas June 2, 2008 at 8:11 pm

    oh yes, ps…. it was an Angel with a message…. but it was a message from God… – i don’t see the Authority discrepancy there… in the Name of the King thing.

  31. 31 Charis June 3, 2008 at 2:42 pm

    Wow ! I was really desparate for this conversation about eight or nine years ago! just couldn’t find it….I can identify with Briana and others who identify as ‘in-between’. Six years out of charismatic expression, I have found the unresolved dilemmas somewhat paralysing and traumatising but just love this conversation nevertheless.
    Frank, I really liked your post, especially this:
    “God is after ongoing transformational development moreso than attaining to a particular level of truth.”
    Also liked John’s quote: “True sanity only comes through conscious[ness]?? altering epiphenies with God”. Also resonate with Michael Creel’s emphasising of God’s holistic interaction with us.

  32. 32 Paul June 10, 2008 at 10:58 pm

    “Offend the mind to reveal the heart” Rodney H.B. really prepared the ground with that one. The new catch phrase to get away with just about anything and proclaim that one is just more spiritual than the one offended .Part name calling has bin the haul mark of this latest “get drunk in the spirit” fad protesting anything held sacred fad. Oh thats right we can be biblical also because only we know the fussy details about acts2. Oh well.
    Borrowing from everything but being connected to nothing. The Catholic and the Orthodox saints that these self proclaimed new mystics write about were just that, Orthodox with a big O. Saint John of the Cross was a doctor of the church and his spirituality came through his orthodoxy along with Pare Pio and the rest. Sorry about that for all those in “connected to nothing” land. That is pretty appealing when one is going through puberty but at some point things need to gel. Try being a pastor for a while instead of “leaving all the messes behind” and it might cause one to sober up a bit. Somehow I dont think that will be happening any time soon though. ;)

    Sorry, just a little tired of all hipe.

  33. 33 Gina June 11, 2008 at 4:07 am

    “Intellectual discernment is a holdover from modernism. Moreover, it is paranoia-based (always focused on keeping the devil out, but never recognizing God when He is trying to come in). This spirit of fear is the bread and butter of the heresy hunter pages. The greatest discernment you will ever have is to be able to recognize God, not the devil. Anyone, the most depraved sinner, can point out the devil. But will we recognize God when He is trying to come in?” John Crowder

    John 10:1-16 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them. Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.” Jesus Christ

    Looks like Mr. Corwder has things backward to me.

  34. 34 paulnsilas June 17, 2008 at 3:48 am

    Crowder you are a nut and a blasphemer.
    But there’s no denying you have a following..which is a bigger tragedy.
    You might want to consider REPENTING.
    Where there’s smoke there’s fire.

    Scripture and Witchcraft

    The word witchcraft brings about images of women in dark pointy hats standing over cauldrons stirring smoldering contents while chanting rhymes calling upon the forces of darkness. What does Scripture actually say witchcraft is and how does that line up with our beliefs that have been handed down from generation to generation?

    Witchcraft defined

    Galatians 5:19-21
    19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft (5331), hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of Elohim.

    Pharmakeia (far-mak-i’-ah); Word Origin: Greek, Noun Feminine, Strong #: 5331

    The use or the administering of drugs, poisoning. sorcery, magical arts, often found in connection with idolatry and fostered by it Metaphorically: the deceptions and seductions of idolatry

    This is from the root word:

    Pharmakeus (far-mak-yoos’); Noun Masculine, Strong #: 5332

    One who prepares or uses magical remedies sorcerer

    The drug industry is recognized as the Pharmaceutical Industry!

    Webster’s Dictionary defines pharmaceutical as:

    From the Greek word Pharmakeia, to practice witchcraft, use medicine, a poison, medicine 1. Of pharmacy or pharmacists. 2. Of or by drugs: as, pharmaceutical cure.

    Revelation 18:23
    And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in you; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in you: for your merchants were the great men of the earth; for by their sorceries (5331)were all nations deceived.

    Revelation 9:21
    Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries,(5331) nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

  35. 35 tokethis October 8, 2008 at 3:05 am

    Plenty of Crowderology, Crowderisms, and Crowderesy alongwith expose of the new mystic paradigm (its not really that new) at:

    http://johncrowderisaheretic.wordpress.com

  36. 36 zoecarnate October 8, 2008 at 1:12 pm

    Wow “toke,” you have a lot of time on your hands – an entire dedicated blog! Of course, you only have two entries so far…we’ll see if it lasts. :)

  37. 37 tokethis October 17, 2008 at 2:44 pm

    Oh it will last. Despite Crowder’s articulate attempts (or inarticulate, depending on the venue) to deconstruct orthodoxy, he will not succeed. God won’t allow it. I know its not ‘up to me’. But, while I may not be as slickly marketed as the Sons of Thunder website hopefully at least a few will think twice about listening to Crowder and co.’s heretical gibbering.

  38. 38 MeteoraStorm November 16, 2008 at 2:01 am

    Well i’m off to buy my Baby Jesus. Lucky it’s Christmas and there’s all those lovely nativity sets around.

    Good on you John – keep going!

  39. 39 Roger Flyer November 16, 2008 at 4:55 pm

    If Jesus was from Jersey (c flyertunes 11/07)
    I’d like to join in this conversation with a baby boomer’s take. I am one who has been through ‘the jesus movement’, the ‘renewal’ and into the ‘emergence’
    as a lay-person, a professional pastor and a house church pastor.

    If Jesus was from Jersey
    (c Roger Flyer 07)

    If Jesus was from Jersey
    He would be the Boss
    Of a traveling revival show
    Fire water for the lost.
    And every night there’s testimony
    That a song might save the day
    The E Street band of angels
    Leading us all astray
    I know that Jesus loves me
    For the Bible tells me so
    But the Boss will live forever
    ‘til every sinner sees the show…

    If the Man was from the south Bronx
    He’d beat a hip-hop heart
    He’d walk among the fatherless
    He’d surely do his part
    To relieve the suffering of His people
    While hangin’ with his crew.
    He’d sell his bling, let justice ring
    He’d do all that he could do…
    He’d rap about God’s mercy
    Bless all the children in his crib.
    He’d love and cherish women
    And sacrifice his rib.

    If Yeshua was from Minnesota
    He be way up on the Range
    He’d make himself a Gentile poet
    Nobody’d think it strange…
    He’d turn the tables and go electric
    And wail his protest loud
    And his friends would
    All desert him–
    But he’d bear the scornful crowd.
    Nobody said it was easy
    To be a prophet in our town
    Nobody said it would be easy To wear a thorny crown.
    And if God the Father was from Liverpool
    He’d take the names of saints
    He’d beget himself into a band
    And send the girls to faint.
    He’d shock and awe the Germans with
    A case of Anglo soul
    And when the fullness of time had come
    He’d save the world with rock and roll
    And forty years ago we raised him up
    We all sang that song of love
    And then a crazy man came and cut him down
    Yeah yeah yeah because of love…

    If the Holy Spirit was from the Delta
    You know he’d play the blues
    He’d play the coronet in a big brass band
    Trumpeting good news.
    He’d lead the lost at Pentecost
    To the very gates of Heaven
    ‘Laissez les bon temps rouller’
    As all the sinners go marching in
    We shall walk into the waters
    Put our fingers in that dam
    And the sea will part before us
    As we march onto dry land…

    And he will kill the fatted calf
    And bring all the homeless home
    Then we’ll all sit down together
    Everyone, at last, at home…

  40. 40 pat November 20, 2008 at 2:54 pm

    First I want to make perfectly clear, that the devil is the author of division in the body of christ. And it grieves me deeply what is happening. I take no pleasure in speaking of these matters. It is heartbreaking to see the lives that have been deluded and led astray. I have been around these types of ministries and without guile I must say that this ministry of John Crowder exemplifies the combination of how dangerous the “religioulsly free chrisitanity” can become. (long sigh….) I can also say that I have had experiences and believed things that yes, I thought was God. But I can equally say that once I started to question them ..Hands down…ALL HELL BROKE LOOSE. Ultimately God has taken me out of these things and delivered me. Very painful, no hype in this people.

    From honest experience of the demonic realm and the value of our salvation I have found that those who are so obessed with not being religious can hold the most dangerous error. Deep down I believe Christians want to be cool and edgy in a goddless society. They want people to be jealous of the love and freedom that they have found. Sincere intentions. But people we are not called to be “cool” and “relevant”. People are dying, they are on they’re way to hell and all we can do is have a constant hippie jesus rave party? And obesess over spiritual knowledge and experiences that in reality are forbidden territory and if you don’t turn from I guarentee you, you may be in shock on judgement day.

    It’s a good intent, but what they think is so relevant produces only cynisism in unbelievers and once again the world looks upon the church and laughs. Same with lakeland. And we still don’t get it.
    See we want to have a party all the time. Because nobody really wants to take an honest hard look at themselves and actually deal with their issues. When pain does arise I have experienced that peoples serious pain get shoved under the rug of “the new wine”. It’s no different then chuggin’ a Jack Daniels. THis is disgusting.
    THere is nothing wrong with having joy and celebrating what Jesus had done for us and the freedom of love and we should be happy. But when we centralize and obsesss on areas of the “spirit” it becomes nothing more than a shallow spiritual personality cult. ANd please spare me the “you’re being religous tags” , please…been there done that.

    Don’t let your spiritual pride and puffed up knowledge ever disqualify you from the true riches in Christ Jesus. If you think you are a christian and you can’t become deceived in areas of God because “you just know” this is god cause he told you, you’re already decieved. The church is immature. Spiritually sick to death and immature. Turning to occultic forms ..disguising itself as a glorious light of the spirit of God. God help us. I am a part of the body of Christ and I’m embarrassed. I am embarrassed. We have lost the TRUE GOSPEL. This is so heavy. At the same token, we need to be watchful of our tounges and careful what and how we say things. We have NO RIGHT to walk in an arrogance of how much we despise other ministries or people in the movements or out of the movements. WE ALL BEAR A MEASURE OF GUILT!!!!! EVERYBODY!!!!!!, IF YOU CLAIM TO BE A PART OF THE UNIVERSAL CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST EXAMINE YOURSELF IN HUMILITY AND SUBJECTION TO THE LORD. I DON”T CARE WHO YOU ARE. WE SHOULD BE WEEPING AND FASTING IN THE LIGHT OF THE CONDITION OF OUR FELLOW BELOVED. AND OF OURSELVES! WE MUST CONTINUE TO LOVE, TO LOVE, NOT CONDONE WHAT”S GOING ON BUT TO LOVE IN SPITE OF THE FACT THAT SOMETIMES EVEN GOOD MEN DIVIDE.

    Father, open our eyes and our hearts to the truth and no matter who we are whether we are exposing these things or vehemently defending them, we all need help to help each other get home safely. Have mercy on us all.

  41. 41 tokethis January 4, 2009 at 6:37 pm

    Is a new mystic really a different sort or is he simply Meister Eckhart with a Myspace? Maybe a new mystic is like nu metal…a sorry, watered down version of the real thing. Or perhaps a new mystic is like 40 which is the new 30—a redefining of terms which takes the focus off of the facts. Maybe a new mystic himself/herself could straighten me out on this, otherwise I gues I’m just on my own.

    http://johncrowderisaheretic.wordpress.com

  42. 42 cindy September 13, 2009 at 12:25 am

    I’ve been to Toronto. God did some weird and amazing things there. He definitely has a personality that we don’t know about.

    However, John Crowder and his colleagues fake most of their drunkenness. And the Lord told me that we are to live soberly. That doesn’t mean the Holy Ghost won’t fall on you and bless you; what it means is that there are seasons of that.

    John Crowder is a phoney in my opinion, and he makes money off of being phoney.

  43. 43 zoecarnate September 13, 2009 at 12:35 am

    But Cindy, how do you know he’s faking it? How would someone like me know that you weren’t faking it?

    And why do you think he’s making lots of money? It’s a common misconception that authors and/or speakers are just raking it in. But Crowder seems to do a lot of things in living rooms and small churches – I kind’ve doubt he’s making dough hand over fist.

    This isn’t to say I don’t have my questions about his flavor of spirituality – I certainly do, or did – hence the interview. But those are some pretty broad-brush assertions.

    Pax…

  44. 44 seeker3k October 30, 2010 at 3:55 am

    The reason people take drugs and alcohol is to deceive their brain to alter their perception of reality.
    They do this to either entertain themselves, or to try and block out unpleasant experience or thoughts in the real world.

    Following false teaching also deceives your brain and alters your perception of truth.
    The motive to condone false teaching may be the same – for entertainment or blocking out unpleasant thoughts or experience in real life.

    It is blasphemous to associate drunk or drugged with God, because it associates him with deception.

    John Crowder is indirectly worshipping the devil through his fervent adoration of a false Christ named DrunkJesus or MentalnutcaseJesus.

    2 Peter 2:12 But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.

    2 Peter 2:22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”

    Drunkenness and drugtaking has a close relationship with vomit.
    John Crowder is the living manifestation of spiritual vomit.

    2 Cor 11:13-15 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

    Anyone who participates with John Crowder is loving and practicing falsehood and loving blasphemy.

    They should repent urgently or face damnation:

    Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

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  1. 1 Charismatic Chaos or (Holy) Spirited Deconstruction? « zoecarnate Trackback on May 30, 2008 at 1:52 pm
  2. 2 Hello Again « 1ozmom’s Weblog Trackback on May 30, 2008 at 6:30 pm
  3. 3 Stream of Web-Consciousness | Homebrewed Christianity Trackback on May 31, 2008 at 4:13 am
  4. 4 Martin Scott’s Blog » Two very different links Trackback on June 1, 2008 at 3:29 am
  5. 5 Charasmatic Chaos: A response to John Crowder « Practically Christian Trackback on June 2, 2008 at 4:40 am
  6. 6 some good links… « There goes rhymin Simon Trackback on June 5, 2008 at 9:06 pm
  7. 7 John Crowder: Extremely Emerging Post-modern Post-Pentecostal « The Temple Trackback on July 31, 2008 at 12:47 am
  8. 8 Well Shut My Mouth! | Mission Freedom Trackback on April 19, 2010 at 10:55 pm

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